Embracing ESG Principles in Cleantech Businesses

Dunya Jovanovic. Hi Gerald, can you introduce yourself to our audience and tell us a little about your background?

Gerald J Leonard: My name is Gerald J Leonard, and I am the CEO of two companies. Today, we’ll be discussing Turnberry Premiere. One of our Fortune 500 clients asked us to become a preferred supplier and to evaluate our sustainability efforts. This motivated me to delve deeply into sustainability. My background includes over twenty-five years as a certified project, program, and portfolio management consultant. This experience involves working with companies to select projects, identify portfolios, and execute large-scale projects in complex environments. When I began learning about sustainability, I realized that capturing a carbon footprint and reporting on carbon reduction is similar to the processes in a project management office. Using project management skills and tools, I could apply them to sustainability and carbon accounting. Additionally, my background as a musician taught me valuable lessons about teamwork, practice, finding the right mentors, and building a cohesive team, all of which I've applied to business growth and sustainability.

DJ: Tell us more about your sustainability journey.

GL: The sustainability journey involved attending workshops, reading key books, and recognizing that sustainability is a framework and process aligned with business strategy. It's about being better partners with our climate, recycling, reusing resources, and engaging in sustainable practices. Partnering with Greenly, a software-as-a-service platform for carbon accounting, has been crucial. They provide a tool that simplifies the process, allowing us to capture our carbon footprint and identify areas for reduction. This tool and my background in project management have enabled us to create sustainability services for medium-sized to small businesses, helping them meet requirements from larger Fortune 500 companies.

DJ: What are the key steps to fostering a culture of sustainability within a company?

GL: To create a culture supporting sustainability in a company, start with a clear vision and values. Ensure everyone is on the same page regarding sustainability goals. Share compelling stories to align the team with the company's direction. For example, our story about becoming a preferred supplier due to our sustainability efforts helped get everyone on board. It's also crucial to develop best practices and create an environment that supports sustainability, both technically and physically. Finally, emphasize a culture of execution, where processes and systems are in place to achieve sustainability goals.

DJ: How do employees react when they need sustainability-related training or education?

GL: Employees have generally responded well, especially because Greenly's platform integrates educational short videos into the survey process. This approach makes the training seamless and informative, without requiring separate sessions. It helps employees understand their impact and how their actions contribute to the company's carbon footprint, making them more engaged and aware.

DJ: What challenges did you face while implementing sustainability strategies into your business models?

GL: The main challenges involved educating everyone about the process and ensuring they understood its importance. Even with simple processes, some employees were slow to provide necessary data, requiring follow-ups. Additionally, implementing sustainability practices can be complex and require expert guidance. Partnering with Greenly provided the expertise, making it easier to navigate the complexities and achieve our sustainability goals.

DJ: What are some common misconceptions about sustainability in business?

GL: One misconception is that tools like EcoVadis, which focus on high-level ESG processes, are sufficient. While important, they must provide the detailed carbon footprint data necessary for targeted reduction efforts. Another misconception is that sustainability efforts are just about recycling and reusing, without the rigor of capturing and analyzing carbon data. Real data allows companies to focus on the most impactful areas for carbon reduction, avoiding "greenwashing."

DJ: How do you measure the impacts of sustainability efforts?

GL: We measure impacts using science-based targets, which are certified by third-party organizations. These targets help us identify areas of significant carbon impact and track our progress over time. It's a long-term effort, often taking two to three years to see substantial reductions. Having concrete data points and metrics allows us to monitor and adjust our strategies effectively.

DJ: Carbon is just one aspect. What other areas should companies focus on to reduce their environmental footprint?

GL: Besides carbon, companies should consider water usage, recycling, sustainable office practices, and renewable energy. Implementing lead-type buildings, using sustainable cleaning methods, and other eco-friendly practices can also contribute significantly to reducing the overall environmental footprint.

DJ: Integrating sustainability strategies can be financially demanding. How can companies do this effectively without losing profits?

GL: Effective integration involves using portfolio management principles. By allocating a specific percentage of the budget to transformational projects, growth initiatives, and maintaining current operations, companies can balance sustainability investments with profitability. Conducting thorough cost-benefit analyses and having a rigorous project selection process ensures that sustainability projects align with the company’s strategic goals and provide a positive return on investment.

DJ: How can companies effectively engage senior leadership to support and invest in sustainability initiatives?

GL: Engaging senior leadership through a structured project approval process also helps. When leaders see the financial and strategic benefits of sustainability initiatives, they are more likely to support and invest in them. This structured approach ensures that sustainability efforts contribute to the company’s long-term success.

DJ: Do you believe adopting ESG and sustainability strategies can help companies differentiate themselves in the market and attract investors?

GL: Investors are increasingly looking for companies with strong sustainability practices. These companies are seen as responsible and forward-thinking, which attracts investment. Additionally, the younger workforce is more concerned about sustainability, and companies that prioritize these values attract talented and dedicated employees.

DJ: Do you think having mandatory sustainability laws will change the business landscape?

GL: Yes, mandatory sustainability laws will likely become more prevalent and will significantly impact businesses. Countries in the EU already have such laws. Even without laws in the US, many Fortune 500 companies require their suppliers to comply with international sustainability standards. As consumers and investors become more aware, the demand for sustainable business practices will grow, making it beneficial for companies to adopt these practices proactively.

DJ: What emerging trends in sustainability do you believe will impact businesses in the next five years?

GL: Artificial intelligence will significantly impact sustainability by providing better data and insights for managing carbon footprints. Also, more governments will likely implement sustainability laws and regulations, increasing the pressure on businesses to adopt sustainable practices. These trends will drive innovation and efficiency in sustainability efforts.

DJ For those interested in learning more about sustainability, can you recommend any books or resources?

GL: I recommend visiting my website, Turnberry Premiere, where you’ll find a list of books, videos, and white papers. Some notable books include "From Green to Gold" and "The Chief Sustainability Officer," which offers insights from various chief sustainability officers in large companies. These resources provide valuable knowledge and case studies on implementing sustainability practices effectively.

Hello friends, you are watching a brand new episode of the Green New Perspective podcast, a place where you'll about innovative climate tech and meet people who are developing them. In this episode, we are tackling sustainability in business with Gerald J. Leonard, the CEO of Turnberry Premier. If you stay with me until the end of the conversation, you are going to learn about the importance of incorporating eco-friendly strategies into corporate framework.

My guest is sharing his personal insights and tips on how to measure environmental impact of your business by using science-based targets and certified metrics. So if you're interested to learn more, stay tuned and enjoy! Hello Gerald, welcome to the Green New Perspective Podcast! Thank you so much, thank you for having me!

Can you introduce yourself for our audience and give us a little bit about your background? Sure. So my name is Gerald J. Leonard and I am a CEO of two companies. And the one we're talking about today is my company Turnberry Premier. And I have a number of Fortune 500 clients and one of them wanted to have us become a preferred supplier. And they also wanted us to take a look at our sustainability efforts.

And that really drove me into really learning and getting a lot of details around sustainability. But my background, what really drove it was I have 25 plus years as a certified project program portfolio management consultant. And working in that space, you work with companies on selecting their projects and identifying their portfolio, on executing very large projects and large complex environments.

And I took that background when I started learning about sustainability and realized that sustainability, when it comes to capturing your carbon-based footprint and reporting and carbon reduction, that it's really a sustainability office, which is same thing as a project management office. And so it's using the project management skills and tools and capabilities around that for sustainability and for carbon accounting. Now, what's interesting is my background is also in music.

Right. I have a, you probably looked at my background and see my instruments. And so how does that play in? There are so many things I learned as a musician about teamwork, about practice, about deliberate practice, about finding the right mentors and coaches, and also finding the right players to be a part of your team or part of your band. And so I've always used those same concepts when it comes to growing in business. I always look at what do I need to work on and

who I need to work with who can help me grow as a coach or a mentor? Because all great musicians, when they become really professional musicians, they always have a learning and learning teacher. And then they always have a band. So I always look for who can I partner with and who can I learn from and also who can I contribute to. So when I started my sustainability journey, I did the same thing. I went to a lot of workshops and programs.

and then figured out there were certain books that I needed to read and I mind mapped them. And when I did the mind map of these four key books, it really stood out to me that sustainability was a framework and a process, really not just about sustainability itself, but it's really about the business strategy of a company and identifying what they're going to work on and what they're not going to work on and how they can be better partners with our climate, our earth.

and basically do things to really recycle, reuse, and make the most of the resources that we have, but also do it in a way that is sustainable and that people will engage with and that they can do good. And so by learning all this and then finding the right band members, and I discovered a company called Greenlee. And Greenlee has a platform, it's a software as a service platform for carbon accounting.

but one of the things about them is that they're also climate experts. And they've taken a lot of what I learned and they've codified it and made it really simple and they built it all into a tool. And again, from my background, I've done a lot of work in the project space. And so I've been an expert also in Microsoft project, which is a SaaS product that is used for managing multiple projects. So when I looked at that tool,

And I remember all of the work I had done in the past in project management, the light bulb went off for me. It was like, wow, here's a tool that does exactly what the other tool did around just projects. This one does it around capturing your carbon based footprint, your baseline, and then identifying the things that need to happen in regards to carbon reduction. And so it allowed me to take my background in music and my experiences and my background in project management.

And as I learned more and applied them to sustainability, allowed me to be able to not only do this for my own company, but now off making a service that we can help other medium sized small businesses figure out how to create a sustainability offering or how to create a sustainability framework and practice in their company so that they can continually work with some of the larger Fortune 500s who are requiring this now. So that's got a little bit of my background, how this all came together.

So what are the key elements for creating a culture that supports sustainability in a company? know, the key elements for creating a sustainable company, it really starts with having a clear vision of who the company is. So once you have a clear vision of how you're planning on leveraging sustainability and using these processes, it really accumulates to getting everyone on the same page and having that vision and seeing where the company is going and how it wants to contribute to

creating a more sustainable earth and a sustainable service that they're offering. The next thing, it's really being clear about your values, about the company's values. Like what are the criteria in which they're gonna make decisions? With sustainability being part of the core processes, recycling and reuse and using smart grids and using tools that are gonna help them with their processes.

that begins to kind of become the standard or framework in which they make decisions the way they do things. And so it allows them to establish those processes. But also by having those core values allows everyone else to get on board. And then once you have a great vision and a great set of values, you also need to have great stories. And those stories align everyone with where the company is going. And once everyone knows here's where we're going, here's the criteria that we're using,

Why are we doing that? And that's what the stories do. The stories get to, are we doing this in the beginning? Like for me, my story of working with my client and them saying, hey, we would love for you to be a preferred supplier with us, but it's going to require you to really have a handle on your sustainability process. And quite honestly, sustainability and a lot of the workshops, especially in America, they're all around recycle, reuse. And I didn't understand the rigor of

capturing a carbon-based footprint and looking at your financials and looking at all your activities and putting it into a database that you could actually see what your carbon-based footprint metric ton usage of carbon is at this point and then what the carbon reduction process looked like. Once I went through that process and saw it, that became the story for all of my employees. So as we all looked at that and said, you know what, this was before somewhat complex,

Now it's really clear what we need to do. That became one of the leading stories that we use within the company to share with everyone, to get everyone on board. So when they were taking their surveys and reaching out to other clients around this, they now get the story. They can feel it. They can sense it. They can pull their head, heart, and their hands into it. And then once you have that, you want to also make sure you have supporting best practices as well as create the environment that supports that.

And that can be your technical as well as your physical environment. And that they're seeing that you're living this process and then you circle it all with a culture of execution, just getting things done, that you develop processes, systems and so on, but that you're seeing things happen that are beginning to move the needle within your organization. How do employees react when they hear that they have to, you know, take some, I suppose, sustainability related trainings or education?

to be able to work in that kind of ESG more sustainable environment. You know, what I found was, and I think it was because of the company I selected with Greenlee. On their platform, which is all built into their SaaS product, when an employee takes the survey, which basically is a way for us to capture their input, because when you're creating your carbon-based footprint for your organization, you're not only getting it for the overall company overall, you're also getting it

for each of the employees because how they are living and what they're doing attributes to your carbon footprint as well as your suppliers. And then the Greenlee tool, when you send out an email link to an employee to get access to the information to complete their assessment, right? It's probably around five or six questions that they ask you. But as they're asking you the questions, you click a link and it shows you a video.

a very short 30 second video about sustainability, about carbon, about greenhouse gases and so on and what their part of it is. So as they're providing you the information that they need, they're getting educated and they're becoming aware of their impact of carbon on the, within the overall environment within their own home, as well as how it's contributing to the company. So.

It's not like the employees had to go to a separate training, right? Because sometimes people are going to push back and you're like, Hey, I'm too busy. got this going. got that going. We'll have time for this. But when they, when they get an email link and it says, this will take you six minutes, I got six minutes. I can do that. Right. I go get a cup of coffee. And now, now, not only am I clicking the link and getting, and going through this process, but I'm getting educated.

And as I'm filling out the little form and answering the questions about my commuting, about my lunch, about how many hours am I working and the things that I'm doing, it also begins to educate them. So when they're done, they're now thinking differently about the plane rides and the things that they're doing that are contributing to the carbon-based footprint of their company, as well as their individual selves. So you're getting them on board.

Yes, it really helps to get them on board of that overall process. And what challenges did you find while trying to implement the sustainability-related strategies into business models? Well, know, the thing I found was a part of it was educating everyone to the process and even with employees and even with the fact that it was pretty simple. We still had a few employees that kind of drug their feet on getting us the data.

It allowed us to kind of have, you know, some conversations or to create some additional emails that we had to send out. So part of it is just creating that motivation and seeing, getting people to see the importance of it. And I think the other part of it is that's really important is, and this is why I was really happy. just selected Greenly is that even though I had learned a lot, and even though I had 25 years of experience doing this, as I was implementing this in my own company, there are parts of it that.

were somewhat complex. And it was once I do this part, you know, how does that relate to this or how do I get my data in from my accounting system? Do I need to look at the electrical information from my utility company and so on? And then as I'm developing my targets and my science-based targets, there's a lot of data out there. So it can actually get confusing if you don't have the right guide. And remember when I first started sharing, said,

You know, as a musician, always had, you I practiced, but I always would go after a coach. And that's what I loved about the Greenlee platform that I discovered through my research and have become a partner with them is that they provide the science-based experts who understand the platform system, but they understand the greenhouse gas emissions requirements, the science-based targets requirements.

and the process. They've done this now for over 2000 of their clients. And so I'm one of the partners that's a part of that process. You have other companies that have become partners with them, but it really made it easy to work through the process because I had an expert as a tour guide and not just a travel agent. And the reason I use that language, a travel agent versus a tour guide, a tour guide is someone who's been there and done that and they can take you on the journey.

and take you to the top of the mountain and show you all the things that you wouldn't see on the brochure. A travel agent says, here's the brochure. Let me give you the software. Let me give you the tool. Go for it. And you call back and says, hey, I'm at this junction. Do I make a right or a left? They're going to go, I don't know. I've never been there myself. I'm just providing you this tool and this service. I'm just setting up the vacation for you, if you will.

And so that's why I like the concept of a tour guide, because not only are they going to give me the brochure and help me get started on the journey, they're going to know all the little things I need to watch out for and catch and be aware of. And it's amazing just how easier it can become when you have someone who has that level of expertise working with you compared to just trying to figure it out by yourself. And what are some of the most common misconceptions?

You know, some of the most common misconceptions is I know there's tools like EchoVetas and others that are out there where you're just getting, it's focused on the ESG process and you're getting really high level information, but it doesn't give you that carbon based footprint to say, here's the metric ton amount of carbon your company is admitting. It just says that, hey, we're recycling, we're doing these things, we're doing those things.

And this is really important. And I'm not downplaying EchoVetis or any other tool that does that, but it doesn't give you the rigor of capturing your carbon-based footprint. When you capture your carbon-based footprint alongside of those other governance things that you need to do, now you have data, right? You have real solid data from your systems, from your accounting processes, which maps to over 2000 emission factors where you're able to look and see

based on how much usage or how much mileage or how many plane flights you took or what airlines you took, what is your carbon-based footprint? And you can look at that data and see once you have your report, where in your processes are you spending or it's creating the most carbon-based footprint inside of all the different areas that you're looking at. So now it becomes really clear where to focus your attention when it comes to reduction.

because when you look at everything that you would have to do to do carbon-based reduction, it could turn into millions of dollars, right? And a medium-sized company, that's a lot of money. So you know it's gonna cost you to configure, remodify your system and focus on the carbon-based footprint and reduction process, but you also have a limited budget. So you wanna be able to take that limited budget and apply it to where it's gonna have the biggest impact

of reducing your carbon-based footprint. And that's one of the things that having all that data allows you to do. And it's something also called greenwashing. And it's really the idea of greenwashing is where, again, you're just focused on recycling, reuse, and so on and so forth, but you're not getting to the empirical data that's allowing you to know, here's where I need to focus my attention, and here's where I need to take my limited resources

And like a laser beam, focus on those to have the greatest impact of reduction of my greenhouse gases and to meeting my targets of where I'm trying to go. How do you measure the impacts? Well, impacts are measured through, again, through using science-based targets. And those science-based targets are metrics and data points that are certified by a third-party organization where they look at

These are the things that where you have on your carbon based footprint. These are the areas that are the greatest impact of your carbon based footprint. These science based targets are by applying them are going to allow you to have that greatest impact on reducing. And then you end up with metrics, you end up with data points that allows you to see over time. And this is not a, you know, a two month journey, right? This is not a three month, even a one year journey.

This is a two or three year journey because to reduce your carbon based footprint to the numbers by 50 % by 2030, by 70 % or 80 % by 2050, that's, it's gonna take a concerted effort to make that happen. But having those science based targets in that data is where you're able to measure specifically the information, the numbers, the charts.

and seeing that you're making a difference. I mean, carbon is just one thing that you measure, right? There's a lot more thing that you need to do as a company to use your environmental footprint, not just carbon footprint. Exactly. Exactly. And so there's a number of other areas that you have to look in. Again, not just the carbon-based footprint, but your overall water usage, recycling.

You know, just, and here, the other thing is you can also, there's areas where you can't have as much of a reduction process. You can then bring on some projects like, you know, planting trees in a forest or different things that you can do that are projects that will increase or help reduce the carbon based footprint and, and really leverage that as well as there's a lot of now, you know, the lead type buildings, there's, there are different.

ways to clean your offices that are lot more sustainable, friendly, and things along that line, air compressors, recycling, water, and so on that can be leveraged to do that as well. And you've mentioned that integrating sustainability ideas, ESG principles in business can be financially heavy. So how can they do that effectively without actually losing their profits? Can they?

Yes, they can because it's, when you think about, and again, this is where my background and project portfolio management comes in because companies are always investing in the future of their company, right? There may be at point A and they want to get to point B so they can deliver this new product and service. Well, they can't spend all of their money on this new innovative process where they still have to run the business. They still have to grow their business and they still have to

focus on how are they gonna continually transform their business. So by using portfolio management principles, know, one principle is what I call a portfolio mix process. And that's again, where Gartner created this framework where you take 10 % of your budget and you focus on projects that will transform the business. In other words, you know, what's the new iPhone or the new iPad or the new chat GPT service or something that is gonna radically change

and transform that part of the business. The other 35%, 30 % or 35 % can go into projects that focus on growing the business, either by increasing revenue or decreasing costs, which again, hits the bottom line as far as growing your profits. And then you still have to keep the lights on with the services and products and things that you currently have. So a good 60 % of your budget should go towards

maintaining and running the business, keeping the business proficient and moving forward. And when you're looking at your portfolio of activities that way, you can now step back and go, okay, here's how much we're going to set aside for our project portfolio budget. But of that budget, these are the ways we're gonna break it down between transforming our business, growing our business and running our business, but doing it in a way that at the end of the day,

when you're looking at all the different projects and you're looking at cost benefit analysis and your return on investments and those kinds of things, you are then making sure that the projects that you're executing are going to have a positive impact on your bottom line and provide those returns that you're looking for. And one of the best ways also I've seen in doing that is to have like a gate review of projects before you allow them to be funded. I remember being a part of a

a major law firm where I ran their planning and programs office and any projects that we released as a project that's now being executed, it had to go before a board and they had to look at, okay, how viable is this project? How does this project align to our vision and strategy? Because again, when you look at what I talked about earlier, vision and values, the vision can be the overall structure of where the company's going. Those values could also be

called your business drivers, improve profits and increase sales, improve optimization of our services and so on. So you can look at specific business drivers. Now you wanna look and see are the projects that are being selected in our portfolio aligned to the vision and to our drivers or our values? And are those projects being vetted and have documented cost benefit analysis

where we know that there is a promised return and we're going to track that. And we have the processes to track that. All of that comes into play and it comes into play even stronger with inside of the sustainability area because you're investing a lot of money to make changes in whether you're using gas vehicles right now in your company and you're gonna switch over to EV vehicles. That's not a small cost, right? If you're in one data center and you realize after doing your analysis,

that that data center creates a larger footprint and you want to switch it to another data center. It may be simple if it's within the same company and you're just moving the data from one data center to another data center that has a better carbon footprint. But if it's moving to a whole nother company, that's a major project. Or if you have to switch ERP systems or cell systems or your CRM systems because the current company you're using

doesn't comply with sustainability activities that you want, and you found one that does. Just that move along and the training and the governance and re-jiggering all your processes and people can cost significant. So by having that gate upfront and having that board that looks at all these processes, it looks at the portfolio, you're able to now look at all of that and go, okay, we've taken it through the rigors of our process and now we're confident

that this project, whether it's half a million, two million, whatever that cost is, is going to return X amount to our bottom line and it's gonna save us this, it's gonna make us more efficient and so on. And when you do that, everyone at the top level, they're paying attention now. They're gonna be engaged in that process. If projects are just being released in the wild, then you're not gonna get the senior leadership's team focused. But if they know that

It's affecting the bottom line and that bottom line is affecting their bonuses and affecting their pay and affecting how much money their departments are getting. Now you got their attention because not only is it focused on the company, they're going to experience the benefit of that project being executed properly, personally. And that's when you really capture buy-in, when people know that, hey, this is what's in it for me. And you feel the companies by adopting.

ESG sustainability strategies can differentiate themselves in the market and maybe get some investors there. Exactly. Definitely. Because nowadays, many of the investors are looking for sustainable companies. I there are many books written about building a sustainable company. And it's not just the whole idea of building a sustainable company. It's not just around carbon emissions, right? It's am I building a company that can grow its revenue?

create processes and become sustainable over the long haul. And that means that as you're going through the cycle of business where, you know, things take off and you're in the infant stage and you're trying to grow and now you're making money, but if you're still not reinventing yourself, your projects and your processes and your systems and your products become obsolete. So you're constantly are having to do that, but you can build your company in such a way that

Again, if you're following that governance process of that portfolio mix where 10 % of your portfolio is always focused on the next thing that you're going to focus on of the next product you're bringing to the business, you're modifying and optimizing 35 % of your portfolio. And then you're maintaining the 60%. You're keeping the engine going, but you're also looking at what's next. And you're, you're constantly revamping and improving what you're doing.

and you're looking at what's next in the market that we need to take advantage of. know, obviously chat GPT and things along that line, an AI have radically transformed and it's sped up the cycle time of when things become obsolete. And by learning how to leverage and embrace AI and adopt it and modify your systems with it, it allows you to stay ahead.

or even aligned with that curve or even ahead of that curve. But it takes that rigor of creating that balance where you have a company that is innovative and entrepreneurial, yet it's sustainable, not just from a carbon standpoint or a governance standpoint, but also as a business that you have a business that is going to be around 100 years from now. And my last question for you is what emerging trends in sustainability do you believe?

will impact businesses in let's say next five years? I would definitely say AI, right? I AI is on the cusp of transforming so many things because as we get better data into the systems around what carbon-based footprints look like, where we normally see the greatest challenges of controlling that, all the data that's being brought into the system,

by applying AI to it, now we're going to be able to preemptively know, you know, where to focus our attention. We're going to know how to have systems that can provide that data right up front and build it into our processes. So I definitely see that artificial intelligence is going to transform even more the overall sustainability practice. And I believe that also governments that are not requiring it as a law,

will begin to require it as a law, even more so because as the summers get hotter and different things happen, obviously you have climate deniers and so on and so forth, but there are situations and circumstances that are happening where you can't turn a blind eye to that anymore. You have to look at it. And there will be legislators and governmental bodies that will put in laws and frameworks and statues to say, is how we need to

manage these processes, do business and so on. And so I think those two are going to have a really big impact, AI and then future governmental laws and regulations. And for people who are interested to learn more about sustainability, can you recommend some of the books or communities, maybe these core channels, Slack channels, website, whatever you want to what, you know, what inspired you to actually hop on this journey and well, start a business around it.

I would definitely say, if you go to my website, Turnberry Premier, forward slash sustainability, a lot of the books and resources that I have there, and there's a number of videos and some white papers that are available. I think there's a number of books like, From Green to Gold is a great book. There's one on the Chief Sustainability Officer that is out.

That's a really good one because that one has probably over 25 to 30 case studies where a consultant at Fannie Mae interviewed other chief sustainability officers and had a slew of questions that they went through. And so you're learning about addressing sustainability from the chief sustainability officer and how they're implementing their processes and what they had to do to really roll out sustainability in these Fortune 500 companies.

And so that's a really, really good book. So I would say those are the resources I would recommend. Okay, Joel. Thank you for being my guest here on the podcast. Well, thank you so much for having me.

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